{"collection":"Buddhism","html_url":"https://unchartedknowledge.5gfusion.net/browse/bud/tib/nytimes.htm","path":"bud/tib/nytimes.htm","source_url":"https://sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/nytimes.htm","text":"-------------------------- CanTibNet Newsletter ------------------------\nPublished by: The Canada-Tibet Committee\nEditorial Board: Brian Given ([email protected])\nNima Dorjee ([email protected])\nConrad Richter ([email protected])\nSubmissions\n& Subscriptions to: [email protected]\nor fax to: +1-416-640-6641\nWe encourage discussion on articles. Send us your comments,\nannouncements, news or items for discussion.\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\nIssue ID: 93/12/05 07:25 GMT\n============================================================================\nTable of Contents\n---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n1. New York Times Interview with the Dalai Lama ....................... 367\n---------------------------------------------------------------------------\n(from CND)\nSource: The New York Times, 11/28/1993\nWritten by: Claudia Dreifus\nThe last place one expects to find His Holiness Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th\nDalai Lama of Tibet, the exiled secular and religious leader of the Tibetan\npeople, the winner of the 1989 Nobel Peace Prize, the world's leading\nexponent of nonviolent political change, is at a glitzy Tucson, Ariz.,\ngolfing resort called the Sheraton El Conquistador. Yet there he was on a\nrecent autumn morning, dressed in his traditional maroon robes, surrounded\nby Buddhist monks and non-Buddhist bodyguards, astonishing tourists as he\nrushed past the snack bar.\nThe Dalai Lama had come to this unlikely corner of the world to give a\nseries of interpretive readings from \"A Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of\nLife\" by Shantideva, an eighth-century Buddhist saint. For five full days,\n1,500 attendees risked bad backs and cramped hands to sit for hours taking\nnotes on the nature of patience. For them, participants in the expanding\nBuddhist movement in the Western world, this was a rare opportunity to study\nwith the head of the faith -- the equivalent of taking Bible classes from\nthe Pope. Moreover, many of the aspirants were more secular types, veterans\nof the 1960's who'd come to regard the Dalai Lama as the Rev. Dr. Martin\nLuther King Jr., the Mahatma Gandhi of this political moment. It is a forum\nthe Dalai Lama clearly enjoys, a needed break from routine as head of the\nTibetan government-in-exile in India. \"I am a simple Buddhist monk -- no\nmore, no less,\" he often says of himself. At the teachings, he gets to be\nthat.\nYet his life has been anything but simple. Born in 1935 to a peasant family\nin northeast Tibet, he was, at the age of 2, identified after the death of\nthe 13th Dalai Lama as the 14th reincarnation of the Buddha of Compassion.\nThat recognition brought a new name; Lhamo Thondup now became Jetsun Jamphel\nNgawang Lobsang Yeshe Tenzin Gyatso (Holy Lord, Gentle Glory, Eloquent,\nCompassionate, Learned Defender of the Faith, Ocean of Wisdom). Taken to\nLhasa to be educated, he grew up in a 1,000-room palace, surrounded by\ndoting monks who tutored him in subjects like philosophy, medicine and\nmetaphysics and gave him a childhood of pure magic.\nThe magic ended in 1950 when the 15-year-old Dalai Lama was called upon to\nassume full powers as head of state. This, at the very moment the People's\nLiberation Army of China was invading Tibet. For the next nine years, the\nyoung ruler attempted to negotiate with Mao Zedong and Chou En-lai, who were\nintent on absorbing Tibet into China. Then, in 1959, after China brutally\n\"quelled\" a Tibetan civilian uprising against Chinese rule, the Dalai Lama\nfled to India; some 100,000 Tibetans have since followed him across the\nHimalayas.\nIn India, he was permitted to set up a government-in-exile in a small\nvillage, Dharamsala, a long day's drive from New Delhi. \"His Holiness\nreconstructed a viable Tibetan community in India, preserving the culture of\nTibet,\" says his close friend Robert Thurman, professor of Indo-Tibetan\nstudies at Columbia University. \"He held the Tibetan people together in\nexile and gave them hope during the very severe, even genocidal oppression\nin their homeland. He's also the first leader of Tibet to become a world\nleader, even without a political base -- just on his moral force.\"\nIn Tucson, a day after his teachings were completed, the Dalai Lama met in\nhis suite with the interviewer. As would be expected from someone who has\nbeen worshiped as a demigod since age 2, he greets strangers with a mask of\npleasant formality, which soon melts as he becomes engaged in ideas and\nconversation. An hour and a half becomes three; formality turns to laughter.\nOne senses he's a little bored by the adulation that is his daily fare. The\nmost striking thing about the Dalai Lama is his capacity for joy -- how\nwidely he smiles, how amused he is by his own contradictions, his own human\nfoibles. The journalist William Shirer once said of his interviews with\nGandhi in the 1930's, \"You felt you were the only person in the room, that\nhe had all the time in the world for you.\" This is true of Tenzin Gyatso\nalso.\nQ: Your Holiness, you seem such a happy person. Have there been\nmoments in your life when your faith in human goodness was tested?\nThe Dalai Lama: No.\nQ:You've never felt in danger of becoming cynical?\nA: No. Of course, when I say that human nature is gentleness, it is not\n100 percent so. Every human being has that nature, but there are many people\nacting against their nature, being false. Certainly there have been sad\nmoments for me. The Chinese suppressions in Lhasa in 1987, 1988, now that\nwas sad. A great many people were killed. I am sometimes sad when I hear the\npersonal stories of Tibetan refugees who have been tortured or beaten. Some\nirritation, some anger comes. But it never lasts long. I always try to think\nat a deeper level, to find ways to console.\nQ: I understand that you were very angry during the 1990 gulf war, as\nangry as you've ever been.\nA: Angry? No. But one thing, when people started blaming Saddam Hussein,\nthen my heart went out to him.\nQ: To Saddam Hussein?\nA: Yes. Because this blaming everything on him -- it's unfair. He may be\na bad man, but without his army, he cannot act as aggressively as he does.\nAnd his army, without weapons, cannot do anything. And these weapons were\nnot produced in Iraq itself. Who supplied them? Western nations! So one day\nsomething happened and they blamed everything on him -- without\nacknowledging their own contributions. That's wrong. The gulf crisis also\nclearly demonstrated the serious implications of the arms trade. War --\nwithout an army, killing as few people as possible -- is acceptable. But the\nsuffering of large numbers of people due to a military mission, that is sad.\nQ: Did you say that killing sometimes is acceptable?\nA: Comparatively. In human society, some people do get killed, for a\nvariety of reasons. However, when you have an established army, and\ncountries with those armies go to war, the casualties are immense. It's not\none or two casualties, it's thousands. And with nuclear weapons, it's\nmillions, really millions. For that reason, the arms trade is really\nirresponsible. Irresponsible! Global demilitarization is essential.\nQ: In Tibet, from the late 1950's until the early 1970's, one of your\nbrothers was involved in leading a guerrilla movement against the Chinese.\nIn fact, the guerrillas were supported by the C.I.A. How did you feel about\nthat?\nA: I'm always against violence. But the Tibetan guerrillas were very\ndedicated people. They were willing to sacrifice their own lives for the\nTibetan nation. And they found a way to receive help from the C.I.A. Now,\nthe C.I.A.'s motivation for helping was entirely political. They did not\nhelp out of genuine sympathy, not out of support for a just cause. That was\nnot very healthy.\nToday, the help and support we receive from the United States is truly\nout of sympathy and human compassion. In spite of their desire for good\nrelations with China, the Congress of the United States at least supports\nTibetan human rights. So this is something really precious, genuine.\nQ: To change the subject, you have spoken, as few religious leaders have,\nof the dangers of global overpopulation.\nA: Well, the population problem is a serious reality. In India, some\npeople were reluctant to accept birth control because of religious\ntraditions. So I thought, from the Buddhist viewpoint, there is a\npossibility of flexibility on this problem. I thought it might be good to\nspeak out and eventually create more open space for leaders in other\nreligious traditions to discuss the issue.\nQ: How do you feel, then, about Pope John Paul II's continued opposition\nto birth control?\nA: That's his religious principle. He is acting from a certain principle\n-- especially when he speaks about the need to respect the rights of\nfetuses. Actually, I feel very touched that the Pope has taken a stand on\nthat.\nQ: Can you also understand the needs of a woman who might not be able to\nraise a child?\nA: When I was in Lithuania a few years ago, I visited a nursery and I was\ntold, \"All these children are unwanted.\" So I think it is better that that\nsituation be stopped right from the beginning -- birth control. Of course,\nabortion, from a Buddhist viewpoint, is an act of killing and is negative,\ngenerally speaking. But it depends on the circumstances. If the unborn child\nwill be retarded or if the birth will create serious problems for the\nparent, these are cases where there can be an exception. I think abortion\nshould be approved or disapproved according to each circumstance.\nQ: I understand you've experienced a major change in thinking about the\nrole of women in the world.\nA: It's not so much a change. I've gained an awareness of the sensitivity\nof women's issues; even in the 1960's and 1970's, I didn't have much\nknowledge of this problem. The basic Buddhist stand on the question of\nequality between the genders is age-old. At the highest tantric levels, at\nthe highest esoteric level, you must respect women: every woman. In Tibetan\nsociety, there has been some careless discrimination. Yet there have been\nexceptional women, high lamas, who are respected throughout Tibet.\nQ: In a recent issue of the Buddhist magazine Tricycle, the actor\nSpalding Gray asked you about your dreams, and you said you sometimes dreamt\nof women fighting.\nA: Women fighting? No, no. . . . What I meant was that, in my dreams,\nsometimes women approach me and I immediately realize, \"I'm bhikshu, I'm\nmonk.\" So you see, this is sort of sexual. . . .\nQ: In your dreams, you realize this and you \"fight\" the feeling?\nA: Yes. Similarly, I have dreams where someone is beating me and I want\nto respond. Then, immediately I remember, \"I am monk and I should not kill.\"\nQ: Do you ever experience rages? Even Jesus had rages.\nA: Don't compare me with Jesus. He is a great master, a great master. . .\n. But as to your question, when I was younger, I did get angry. In the past\n30 years, no. One thing, the hatred, the ill-feeling, that's almost gone.\nQ: So what are your weaknesses and faults?\nA: Laziness.\nQ: It is said that you get up at 4 in the morning. How can you be lazy?\nA: It's not that kind of laziness. For instance, sometimes, when I visit\nsome Western countries, I develop an enthusiasm to improve my English. But\nwhen I actually make the effort to study, after a few days, my enthusiasm is\nfinished. [Laughs.] That is laziness. Other weaknesses are, I think, anger\nand attachments. I'm attached to my watch and my prayer beads. Then, of\ncourse, sometimes beautiful women. . . . But then, many monks have the same\nexperience. Some of it is curiosity: If you use this, what is the feeling?\n[Points to his groin.]\nThen, of course, there is the feeling that something sexual must be\nsomething very happy, a marvelous experience. When this develops, I always\nsee the negative side. There's an expression from Nagurajuna, one of the\nIndian masters: \"If you itch, it's nice to scratch it. But it's better to\nhave no itch at all.\" Similarly with the sexual desire. If it is possible\nto be without that feeling, there is much peace. [Smiles.] And without sex,\nthere's no worry about abortion, condoms, things like that.\nQ: Sir, your laugh is world famous -- what makes you laugh?\nA: There is something in my family . . . a tendency to laugh a lot. One\nbrother, Gyalo Thondup, doesn't laugh too much. Another, Lobsang Samten, was\nvery fond of cracking dirty jokes. A third, Taktser Rinpoche, he also\nlaughed a lot. And Tibetans generally are very good-natured. In my\nchildhood, I had a religious assistant who always told me, \"If you can\nreally laugh with full abandonment, it's very good for your health.\"\nQ: What do you do for leisure, to relax?\nA: I like to let my thoughts come to me each morning before I get up. I\nmeditate for a few hours and that is like recharging. After that, my daily\nconduct is usually driven by the motivation to help, to create a positive\natmosphere for others. I garden . . . gardening is one of my hobbies. Also,\nreading encyclopedias with pictures. [Laughs.] I am a man of peace, but I am\nfond of looking at picture books of the Second World War. I own some, which\nI believe are produced by Time-Life. I've just ordered a new set. Thirty\nbooks.\nQ: Really? Why does the Reincarnation of Compassion have such a\nfascination with one of the most terrible events in human history?\nA: Perhaps because the stories are so negative and gruesome, they\nstrengthen my belief in nonviolence. [Smiles.] However, I find many of the\nmachines of violence very attractive. Tanks, airplanes, warships, especially\naircraft carriers. And the German U-boats, submarines. . . .\nQ: I once read that as a little boy in Lhasa, you liked war toys.\nA: Yes, very much. I also had an air rifle in Lhasa. And I have one in\nIndia. I often feed small birds, but when they come together, hawks spot\nthem and catch them -- a very bad thing. So in order to protect these small\nbirds, I keep the air rifle.\nQ: So it is a Buddhist rifle?\nA: [Laughs] A compassionate rifle!\nQ: Let me ask you a difficult question in that regard. You are\nindispensable to your movement. Are you ever afraid you might suffer the\nsame fate as Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr.?\nA: The thought sometimes crosses my mind. As far as being\n\"indispensable,\" people can carry on without me.\nQ: Asian scholars say that the Tibetan nation wouldn't have survived\nafter 1959 if you had not been such a skilled political leader. That being\nthe case, aren't you concerned that the Chinese might try to finish off the\nTibetan independence movement by killing you?\nA: Some Chinese have frankly said to Tibetans: \"You only have one person.\nIf we take care of that, the problem is solved.\"\nQ: Have you prepared yourself for the possibility?\nA: Not really, although in general, as a Buddhist, my daily meditation\ninvolves preparation for death. Death by natural causes, I'm fully prepared\nfor. If sudden death comes, that is tragic -- from the viewpoint of\npractitioners.\nQ: In September, the Palestinians accepted a compromise for regional\nautonomy. If the Chinese offered such a deal, would you accept?\nA: Actually, for the past 14 years, my basic position has been very\nsimilar. There is one difference: in the Palestinian case, virtually every\ngovernment viewed the Territories as occupied and showed concern. In the\nTibetan case only the U.S. Congress and some legal experts consider Tibet an\noccupied land with the right of self-determination.\nQ: What was your feeling when you watched the recent signing of the\nMiddle East peace agreement?\nA: It's a great achievement. This issue is just one year older than the\nTibetan issue. Our problem started in 1949, theirs in 1948. In those years,\na lot of hatred developed. Imagine: Palestinians were taught to hate from\nchildhood. That was seen as good for the national interest. In fact, it was\nrather negative; a lot of violence took place. Now, both sides came to an\nagreement in the spirit of reconciliation, in the spirit of nonviolence.\nThis is wonderful.\nQ: Are there any signs that the Chinese might accept a compromise?\nA: [Quickly] No.\nQ: You once wrote that the Chinese want to rule the world. Do you still\nthink so?\nA: I didn't mean it that way. The remark was related more to the Marxist\nworld intention, rather than Chinese national historical expansionism.\nQ: Do you think that still is the case?\nA: It's changed, I think. That kind of spirit . . . perhaps in the\n1960's, with the Cultural Revolution, it was there. On the Soviet side,\nKhrushchev realized around 1956 that that kind of goal was not realistic. By\nthe end of the Cultural Revolution, in the 1970's, the Chinese realized that\nit was out of the question. Now I think the issue is Chinese nationalist\nhistoric chauvinism. To them, all other people are barbarians.\nQ: Including you?\nA: Oh, certainly! Of course! They are a proud nation. With Marxism gone,\nthe strategy is to reach the economic levels of Western countries. They\nconsider themselves a champion of the third world, particularly after the\nSoviet Union collapsed. They see Russia as having become a part of the West.\nSo what you have is the most populous nation, the worst kind of totalitarian\nsystem, the rule of terror -- with nuclear weapons and with an ideology that\nforce is the ultimate source of power. Their economy was poor, but now it is\nimproving -- without changing those other things. Time magazine has called\nthem \"the super-power of the next century.\"\nQ: Does that scare you?\nA: We already lost our country. But I'm concerned about the world! The\nworld community has the moral responsibility to see democracy in China. Now,\nhow to bring it about? The Chinese intellectuals and the students, they are\nalready a strong political force, and very essential. The world community\nmust give every encouragement to that force. We should not indulge any act\nwhich discourages them.\nQ: Did you think at the time of the Tiananmen Square uprising that the\ndemocracy movement would succeed?\nA: Yes. Actually, the events of the 4th of June shocked me. I did not\nexpect them to fire on their own people.\nQ: But if the Chinese Communists have been as ruthless against Tibetans\nas you charge, why not against pro-democracy demonstrators?\nA: Because it was their own people! How could they shoot them? During the\nCultural Revolution, this was understandable. Tiananmen Square proved that a\nregime that would have no hesitation to shoot their own people, such a\nregime. . . . There should be no doubt about their attitude towards other\nnationalities.\nQ: Given that not-so-optimistic assessment, what possible scenarios for\nChina and Tibet do you see?\nA: Basically, the Chinese Communist regime, it's only a matter of time:\nit will change. Worldwide today, there is a growth of freedom and democracy.\nAnd the democratic movement, inside and outside China, is still very active.\nOnce the Chinese are willing to listen to others' problems, the Tibetans\nwill not be against the Chinese nation. My approach is in the spirit of\nreconciliation. Certainly we can have an agreement.\nIn the meantime, the international community must support Tibet and put\npressure on China. Without that, our own approach, according to the last 14\nyears of experience, has no hope of response.\nQ: In closing, I read somewhere that you are predicting that the 21st\ncentury, unlike the 20th, is to be a century of peace and justice. Why?\nA: Because I believe that in the 20th century, humanity has learned from\nmany, many experiences. Some positive, and many negative. What misery, what\ndestruction! The greatest number of human beings were killed in the two\nworld wars of this century. But human nature is such that when we face a\ntremendous critical situation, the human mind can wake up and find some\nother alternative. That is a human capacity.\n--\n--\n----------------------------------------------------------------------------\nDISTRIBUTION AGREEMENT\nTITLE OF WORK: New York Times Interview with the Dalai Lama\nFILENAME: DL_NYTIM.ZIP\nAUTHOR: Claudia Dreifus\nAUTHOR'S ADDRESS: n/a\nPUBLISHER'S ADDRESS: NY Times\nDATE OF PUBLICATION: 11/28/1993\nORIGIN SITE: BODY DHARMA * Berkeley CA 510/836-4717 DharmaNet (96:101/33.0)\nThe author retains all rights to this work and hereby grants electronic\ndistribution rights to DharmaNet International. This work may be freely copied\nand redistributed, provided that it is accompanied by this Agreement and is\ndistributed at no cost to the recipient. If this work is used by a teacher in\na class, or is quoted in a review, the author shall be notified of such use.\nIt is the spirit of dana, freely offered generosity, which has kept the entire\nBuddhist tradition alive for more than 2,500 years. 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