{"collection":"Majjhima Nikaya","full_text_available":true,"graph_url":"https://unchartedknowledge.5gfusion.net/v2/api/page/suttacentral_mn35/graph","html_url":"https://unchartedknowledge.5gfusion.net/v2/page/suttacentral_mn35","id":"suttacentral_mn35","license":"CC0","rights_basis":"suttacentral_bilara_data_cc0","source":"suttacentral","source_url":"https://suttacentral.net/mn35/en/sujato","summary":null,"tags":["Early Buddhist Texts","Majjhima Nikaya"],"text":"So I have heard. At one time the Buddha was staying near Ves\u0101l\u012b, at the Great Wood, in the hall with the peaked roof. Now at that time Saccaka, the son of Jain parents, was staying in Ves\u0101l\u012b. He was a controversialist who pretended to be astute and was deemed holy by many people. He was telling a crowd in Ves\u0101l\u012b, \u201cI don\u2019t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate\u2014not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!\u201d Then Venerable Assaji robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Ves\u0101l\u012b for alms. As Saccaka was going for a walk he saw Assaji coming off in the distance. He approached him and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, Saccaka stood to one side and said to Assaji, \u201cWorthy Assaji, how does the ascetic Gotama guide his disciples? And on what topics does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?\u201d \u201cAggivessana, this is how the Buddha guides his disciples, and his instructions to disciples generally proceed on these topics: \u2018Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent. Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self. All conditions are impermanent. All things are not-self.\u2019 This is how the Buddha guides his disciples, and how instruction to his disciples generally proceeds.\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s sad to hear, worthy Assaji, that the ascetic Gotama has such a doctrine. Hopefully, some time or other I\u2019ll get to meet the worthy Gotama, and we can have a discussion. And hopefully I can dissuade him from this harmful misconception.\u201d Now at that time around five hundred Licchavis were sitting together at the town hall on some business. Then Saccaka went up to them and said, \u201cCome forth, good Licchav\u012bs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama. If he stands by the position stated to me by one of his well-known disciples\u2014a mendicant named Assaji\u2014I\u2019ll take him on in debate and drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong man would grab a fleecy sheep and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I\u2019ll drag him to and fro and round about, like a strong brewer\u2019s worker would toss a large brewer\u2019s sieve into a deep lake, grab it by the corners, and drag it to and fro and round about! Taking him on in debate, I\u2019ll shake him down and about, and give him a beating, like a strong brewer\u2019s mixer would grab a strainer by the corners and shake it down and about, and give it a beating! I\u2019ll play a game of hemp-washing with the ascetic Gotama, like a sixty-year-old elephant would plunge into a deep lotus pond and play a game of hemp-washing! Come forth, good Licchav\u012bs, come forth! Today I am going to have a discussion with the ascetic Gotama.\u201d At that, some of the Licchavis said, \u201cHow can the ascetic Gotama refute Saccaka\u2019s doctrine, when it is Saccaka who will refute Gotama\u2019s doctrine?\u201d But some of the Licchavis said, \u201cWho is Saccaka to refute the Buddha\u2019s doctrine, when it is the Buddha who will refute Saccaka\u2019s doctrine?\u201d Then Saccaka, escorted by the five hundred Licchavis, went to the hall with the peaked roof in the Great Wood. At that time several mendicants were walking mindfully in the open air. Then Saccaka went up to them and said, \u201cGood fellows, where is the worthy Gotama at present? For we want to see him.\u201d \u201cAggivessana, the Buddha has plunged deep into the Great Wood and is sitting at the root of a tree for the day\u2019s meditation.\u201d Then Saccaka, together with a large group of Licchavis, went to the Buddha in the Great Wood, and exchanged greetings with him. When the greetings and polite conversation were over, he sat down to one side. Before sitting down to one side, some of the Licchav\u012bs bowed, some exchanged greetings and polite conversation, some held up their cupped palms toward the Buddha, some announced their name and clan, while some kept silent. Then Saccaka said to the Buddha, \u201cI\u2019d like to ask the worthy Gotama about a certain point, if you\u2019d take the time to answer.\u201d \u201cAsk what you wish, Aggivessana.\u201d \u201cHow does the worthy Gotama guide his disciples? And on what topics does instruction to his disciples generally proceed?\u201d \u201cThis is how I guide my disciples, and my instructions to disciples generally proceed on these topics: \u2018Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are impermanent. Form, feeling, perception, choices, and consciousness are not-self. All conditions are impermanent. All things are not-self.\u2019 This is how I guide my disciples, and how instruction to my disciples generally proceeds.\u201d \u201cA simile strikes me, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cThen speak as you feel inspired,\u201d said the Buddha. \u201cAll the plants and seeds that achieve growth, increase, and maturity do so depending on the earth and grounded on the earth. All the hard work that gets done depends on the earth and is grounded on the earth. In the same way, an individual person\u2019s self is form. Established on form they brim with merit and wickedness. An individual person\u2019s self is feeling \u2026 perception \u2026 choices \u2026 consciousness. Established on consciousness they brim with merit and wickedness.\u201d \u201cAggivessana, are you not saying this: \u2018Form is my self, feeling is my self, perception is my self, choices are my self, consciousness is my self\u2019?\u201d \u201cIndeed, worthy Gotama, that is what I am saying. And this big crowd agrees with me!\u201d \u201cWhat has this big crowd to do with you? Please just unpack your own statement.\u201d \u201cThen, worthy Gotama, what I am saying is this: \u2018Form is my self, feeling is my self, perception is my self, choices are my self, consciousness is my self\u2019.\u201d \u201cWell then, Aggivessana, I\u2019ll ask you about this in return, and you can answer as you like. What do you think, Aggivessana? Consider an anointed aristocratic king such as Pasenadi of Kosala or Aj\u0101tasattu of Magadha, son of the princess of Videha. Would they have the power in their own realm to execute those who have incurred execution, fine those who have incurred fines, or banish those who have incurred banishment?\u201d \u201cAn anointed king would have such power, worthy Gotama. Even federations such as the Vajjis and Mallas have such power in their own realm. So of course an anointed king such as Pasenadi or Aj\u0101tasattu would wield such power, as is their right.\u201d \u201cWhat do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, \u2018Form is my self,\u2019 do you have power over that form to say: \u2018May my form be like this! May it not be like that\u2019?\u201d When he said this, Saccaka kept silent. The Buddha asked the question a second time, but Saccaka still kept silent. So the Buddha said to Saccaka, \u201cAnswer now, Aggivessana. Now is not the time for silence. If someone fails to answer a legitimate question when asked three times by the Buddha, their head explodes into seven pieces there and then.\u201d Now at that time the spirit Vajirap\u0101\u1e47\u012b, taking up a burning iron thunderbolt, blazing and glowing, stood in the air above Saccaka, thinking, \u201cIf this Saccaka doesn\u2019t answer when asked a third time, I\u2019ll blow his head into seven pieces there and then!\u201d And both the Buddha and Saccaka could see Vajirap\u0101\u1e47\u012b. Saccaka was terrified, shocked, and awestruck. Looking to the Buddha for shelter, asylum, and refuge, he said, \u201cAsk me, worthy Gotama. I will answer.\u201d \u201cWhat do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, \u2018Form is my self,\u2019 do you have power over that form to say: \u2018May my form be like this! May it not be like that\u2019?\u201d \u201cNo, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cThink about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don\u2019t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, \u2018Feeling is my self,\u2019 do you have power over that feeling to say: \u2018May my feeling be like this! May it not be like that\u2019?\u201d \u201cNo, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cThink about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don\u2019t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, \u2018Perception is my self,\u2019 do you have power over that perception to say: \u2018May my perception be like this! May it not be like that\u2019?\u201d \u201cNo, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cThink about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don\u2019t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, \u2018Choices are my self,\u2019 do you have power over those choices to say: \u2018May my choices be like this! May they not be like that\u2019?\u201d \u201cNo, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cThink about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don\u2019t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? When you say, \u2018Consciousness is my self,\u2019 do you have power over that consciousness to say: \u2018May my consciousness be like this! May it not be like that\u2019?\u201d \u201cNo, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cThink about it, Aggivessana! You should think before answering. What you said before and what you said after don\u2019t match up. What do you think, Aggivessana? Is form permanent or impermanent?\u201d \u201cImpermanent.\u201d \u201cBut if it\u2019s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?\u201d \u201cSuffering.\u201d \u201cBut if it\u2019s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: \u2018This is mine, I am this, this is my self\u2019?\u201d \u201cNo, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cWhat do you think, Aggivessana? Is feeling \u2026 perception \u2026 choices \u2026 consciousness permanent or impermanent?\u201d \u201cImpermanent.\u201d \u201cBut if it\u2019s impermanent, is it suffering or happiness?\u201d \u201cSuffering.\u201d \u201cBut if it\u2019s impermanent, suffering, and perishable, is it fit to be regarded thus: \u2018This is mine, I am this, this is my self\u2019?\u201d \u201cNo, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cWhat do you think, Aggivessana? Consider someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: \u2018This is mine, I am this, this is my self.\u2019 Would they be able to completely understand suffering themselves, or live having wiped out suffering?\u201d \u201cHow could they? No, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cWhat do you think, Aggivessana? This being so, aren\u2019t you someone who resorts, draws near, and clings to suffering, regarding it thus: \u2018This is mine, I am this, this is my self\u2019?\u201d \u201cHow could I not? Yes, worthy Gotama.\u201d \u201cSuppose, Aggivessana, there was a person in need of heartwood. Wandering in search of heartwood, they\u2019d take a sharp axe and enter a forest. There they\u2019d see a big banana trunk, straight and young and grown unskewed. They\u2019d cut it down at the base, cut off the top, and unroll the coiled sheaths. But they wouldn\u2019t even find sapwood, much less heartwood. In the same way, when pursued, pressed, and grilled by me on your own doctrine, you turn out to be vacuous, hollow, and mistaken. But it was you who stated before the assembly of Ves\u0101l\u012b: \u2018I don\u2019t see any ascetic or brahmin who would not shake and rock and tremble, sweating from the armpits, were I to take them on in debate\u2014not a leader of an order or a community, or the tutor of a community, and not even one who claims to be a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha. Even an insentient post would shake and rock and tremble were I to take it on in debate. How much more then a human being!\u2019 But sweat is pouring from your forehead; it\u2019s soaked through your robe and drips on the ground. While I now have no sweat on my body.\u201d So the Buddha revealed his golden body to the assembly. When this was said, Saccaka sat silent, dismayed, shoulders drooping, downcast, depressed, with nothing to say. Knowing this, the Licchavi Dummukha said to the Buddha, \u201cA simile strikes me, Blessed One.\u201d \u201cThen speak as you feel inspired,\u201d said the Buddha. \u201cSir, suppose there was a lotus pond not far from a town or village, and a crab lived there. Then several boys or girls would leave the town or village and go to the pond, where they\u2019d pull out the crab and put it on solid ground. Whenever that crab extended a claw, those boys or girls would snap, crack, and break it off with a stick or a stone. And when that crab\u2019s claws had all been snapped, cracked, and broken off it wouldn\u2019t be able to return down into that lotus pond. In the same way, sir, the Buddha has snapped, cracked, and broken off all Saccaka\u2019s twists, ducks, and dodges. Now he can\u2019t get near the Buddha again looking for a debate.\u201d But Saccaka said to him, \u201cHold on, Dummukha, hold on! I wasn\u2019t talking with you, I was talking with the worthy Gotama. Worthy Gotama, leave aside that statement I made\u2014as did various other ascetics and brahmins\u2014 it was, like, just a bit of nonsense. How do you define a disciple of the worthy Gotama who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher\u2019s instructions?\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s when one of my disciples truly sees any kind of form at all\u2014past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: <em>all</em> form\u2014with right understanding: \u2018This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.\u2019 They truly see any kind of feeling \u2026 perception \u2026 choices \u2026 consciousness at all\u2014past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: <em>all</em> consciousness\u2014with right understanding: \u2018This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.\u2019 That\u2019s how to define one of my disciples who follows instructions and responds to advice; who has gone beyond doubt, got rid of indecision, gained assurance, and is independent of others in the Teacher\u2019s instructions.\u201d \u201cBut how do you define a mendicant who is a perfected one, with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their heart\u2019s goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and is rightly freed through enlightenment?\u201d \u201cIt\u2019s when a mendicant truly sees any kind of form at all\u2014past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: <em>all</em> form\u2014with right understanding: \u2018This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.\u2019 And having seen this with right understanding they\u2019re freed by not grasping. They truly see any kind of feeling \u2026 perception \u2026 choices \u2026 consciousness at all\u2014past, future, or present; internal or external; solid or subtle; inferior or superior; far or near: <em>all</em> consciousness\u2014with right understanding: \u2018This is not mine, I am not this, this is not my self.\u2019 And having seen this with right understanding they\u2019re freed by not grasping. That\u2019s how to define a mendicant who is a perfected one, with defilements ended, who has completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their heart\u2019s goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and is rightly freed through enlightenment. A mendicant whose mind is freed like this has three unsurpassable qualities: unsurpassable seeing, practice, and freedom. They honor, respect, esteem, and venerate only the Realized One: \u2018The Blessed One is awakened, tamed, serene, crossed over, and quenched. And he teaches Dhamma for awakening, self-control, serenity, crossing over, and extinguishment.\u2019\u201d When he had spoken, Saccaka said to him, \u201cWorthy Gotama, it was rude and impudent of me to imagine I could attack you in debate. For a person might find safety after attacking a rutting elephant, but not after attacking the worthy Gotama. A person might find safety after attacking a blazing mass of fire, but not after attacking the worthy Gotama. They might find safety after attacking a poisonous viper, but not after attacking the worthy Gotama. It was rude and impudent of me to imagine I could attack you in debate. Would the worthy Gotama together with the mendicant Sa\u1e45gha please accept tomorrow\u2019s meal from me?\u201d The Buddha consented with silence. Then, knowing that the Buddha had consented, Saccaka addressed those Licchavis, \u201cListen, gentlemen. I have invited the ascetic Gotama together with the Sa\u1e45gha of mendicants for tomorrow\u2019s meal. You may all bring me what you think is suitable.\u201d Then, when the night had passed, those Licchavis presented Saccaka with an offering of five hundred servings of food. And Saccaka had delicious fresh and cooked foods prepared in his own park. Then he had the Buddha informed of the time, saying, \u201cIt\u2019s time, worthy Gotama, the meal is ready.\u201d Then the Buddha robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, went to Saccaka\u2019s park, where he sat down on the seat spread out together with the Sa\u1e45gha of mendicants. Then Saccaka served and satisfied the mendicant Sa\u1e45gha headed by the Buddha with his own hands with delicious fresh and cooked foods. When the Buddha had eaten and washed his hand and bowl, Saccaka took a low seat and sat to one side. Then Saccaka said to the Buddha, \u201cWorthy Gotama, may the merit and the growth of merit in this gift be for the happiness of the donors.\u201d \u201cAggivessana, whatever comes from giving to a recipient of a religious donation such as yourself\u2014who is not free of greed, hate, and delusion\u2014will accrue to the donors. Whatever comes from giving to a recipient of a religious donation such as myself\u2014who is free of greed, hate, and delusion\u2014will accrue to you.\u201d","title":"The Shorter Discourse With Saccaka","tradition":"Majjhima Nikaya","translated_text":null,"word_count":2985}